Within: Difference between revisions

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==Definition:==  
==Definition:==  
''(includes defaults, proper tinctures, blazoning)''
''(includes defaults, proper tinctures, blazoning)''
===May 2013 - crescents with things revisited:===
From Wreath: Crescents and Things Revisited
Two submissions this month had the motif of ''within and conjoined to a crescent a tree'', where the crescent was very thin and circular, and the tree quite substantial. Under current precedent, the tree is maintained, which seems fundamentally flawed.
In April 2012, precedent was set regarding how we treat charges within or between the horns of a crescent. At that time, the ruling was:
* the crescent is the main charge, as it is typically the larger charge
* if the other charge is entirely within the crescent, it is a maintained charge...
* if the other charge is placed between the horns of the crescent but extends beyond the bounds of the crescent, it is either a co-primary charge or a secondary charge, depending on the relative sizes of the two charges...
As shown by the first point, this ruling entirely assumed that crescents would be the typical fat crescent with a small "interior" space between its horns, a more substantial charge than any charge placed within it. However, crescents did in fact vary quite a bit in shape in period, and from round and thick to fairly shallow and thin. The thinner crescents seen in period armorials typically do not extend beyond a semi-circle, looking rather more like bananas in fact, but a more circular thin crescent should not be disallowed in SCA heraldry. It is in fact possible to have a substantial central charge surrounded by a less-substantial thin crescent. Given the variety of crescent shapes, the April 2012 precedent is hereby overturned.</span>
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;">We will therefore treat charges entirely within or between the horns of a crescent, conjoined or not, in a similar manner as to how we treat other paired charges as set forth in the February 2012 precedent on sustained and maintained charges: the more substantial charge is the primary or co-primary charge, and the other charge if smaller is a secondary charge or, if conjoined and less than half the visual weight of the other charge, a maintained charge.<
For example, ''a tree within a crescent'' is a primary tree and a secondary crescent, but ''between the horns of a crescent a tree'' is a primary crescent and a secondary tree. Reblazons to clarify whether a charge ''within a crescent'' is a secondary charge or a maintained charge will occur as needed, with the April 2012 reblazons taking priority.
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/05/13-05cl.html#7
==='''April 2012 - crescents with things''':===
From Wreath: Crescents and Things
Commenters were asked to discuss how we should blazon the period motif of charges combined with crescents. Placing items between the horns of a crescent is a period heraldic motif. Richard I of England used it as a seal, currently listed in Society armory as the badge ''(Tinctureless) An estoile between the horns of a crescent'', a style of badge that was likely brought back from the East during the Crusades. The family of Percy had as a badge ''within the horns of a crescent a pair of shacklebolts''. Other examples have been found in period armory of other objects set just above or within a crescent.
Discussion on this motif, informed by the recent discussion, past precedent regarding charges within annulets, and precedent set on the February 2012 Cover Letter regarding sustained secondary charges, has led us to make the following rulings. When considering a charge set between the horns or a crescent or encompassed entirely within the crescent:
* the crescent is the main charge, as it is typically the larger charge
* if the other charge is entirely within the crescent, it is a maintained charge, and will be blazoned with the term ''within'' to emphasize its lesser importance. For example, ''within [and conjoined to] a crescent an X''.
* if the other charge is placed between the horns of the crescent but extends beyond the bounds of the crescent, it is either a co-primary charge or a secondary charge, depending on the relative sizes of the two charges, and will be blazoned with the term ''between the horns'' according to current practice for co-primary and secondary charges. If the charge is conjoined to the crescent and would be considered a secondary charge under this ruling, it is therefore considered a sustained secondary charge. For example, ''in pale an X between [and conjoined to] the horns of a crescent// is a co-primary group. For example, ''between [and conjoined to] the horns of a crescent an X'' or ''a crescent sustaining between its horns an X'' is a primary crescent and a secondary X.
Whether two charges are conjoined or not does not count for difference, only their relative sizes and position. When a primary crescent and a secondary charge are present in a design where they would be expected to be in a secondary or tertiary charge group, the crescent and charge will both be considered part of the same group.
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/04/12-04cl.html


===Example===
===Example===

Revision as of 19:12, 15 May 2022

WARNING: Do not cite this page as a reference. This page is on this wiki to make the content "searchable" and easier to find. If you find the information you seek here, go to the original sources (generally linked) to verify the information and use them for your documentation.

Examples:

Period:

BLANK TN.GIF BLANK TN.GIF BLANK TN.GIF


An Ordinary of Siebmacher's Wappenbuch


Artifacts

BLANK TN.GIF BLANK TN.GIF BLANK TN.GIF
Information A Information B Information C

Modern:

Pictorial Dictionary, 3rd edition:

Per Mistholme, may use PicDic art for submission purposes without prior permission.

Vector Graphics:

Annotated Pennsic Traceable Art Project

Sources:



Precedents:

Precedents of the SCA College of Arms - http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents.html
Morsulus Heralds Website - http://www.morsulus.org/ (to search the LoARs and Precedents)
Use the above links to be sure any precedents listed below haven't been superseded by newer precedents.

Definition:

(includes defaults, proper tinctures, blazoning)

May 2013 - crescents with things revisited:

From Wreath: Crescents and Things Revisited Two submissions this month had the motif of within and conjoined to a crescent a tree, where the crescent was very thin and circular, and the tree quite substantial. Under current precedent, the tree is maintained, which seems fundamentally flawed.

In April 2012, precedent was set regarding how we treat charges within or between the horns of a crescent. At that time, the ruling was:

  • the crescent is the main charge, as it is typically the larger charge
  • if the other charge is entirely within the crescent, it is a maintained charge...
  • if the other charge is placed between the horns of the crescent but extends beyond the bounds of the crescent, it is either a co-primary charge or a secondary charge, depending on the relative sizes of the two charges...

As shown by the first point, this ruling entirely assumed that crescents would be the typical fat crescent with a small "interior" space between its horns, a more substantial charge than any charge placed within it. However, crescents did in fact vary quite a bit in shape in period, and from round and thick to fairly shallow and thin. The thinner crescents seen in period armorials typically do not extend beyond a semi-circle, looking rather more like bananas in fact, but a more circular thin crescent should not be disallowed in SCA heraldry. It is in fact possible to have a substantial central charge surrounded by a less-substantial thin crescent. Given the variety of crescent shapes, the April 2012 precedent is hereby overturned. We will therefore treat charges entirely within or between the horns of a crescent, conjoined or not, in a similar manner as to how we treat other paired charges as set forth in the February 2012 precedent on sustained and maintained charges: the more substantial charge is the primary or co-primary charge, and the other charge if smaller is a secondary charge or, if conjoined and less than half the visual weight of the other charge, a maintained charge.<

For example, a tree within a crescent is a primary tree and a secondary crescent, but between the horns of a crescent a tree is a primary crescent and a secondary tree. Reblazons to clarify whether a charge within a crescent is a secondary charge or a maintained charge will occur as needed, with the April 2012 reblazons taking priority.

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/05/13-05cl.html#7


April 2012 - crescents with things:

From Wreath: Crescents and Things Commenters were asked to discuss how we should blazon the period motif of charges combined with crescents. Placing items between the horns of a crescent is a period heraldic motif. Richard I of England used it as a seal, currently listed in Society armory as the badge (Tinctureless) An estoile between the horns of a crescent, a style of badge that was likely brought back from the East during the Crusades. The family of Percy had as a badge within the horns of a crescent a pair of shacklebolts. Other examples have been found in period armory of other objects set just above or within a crescent.

Discussion on this motif, informed by the recent discussion, past precedent regarding charges within annulets, and precedent set on the February 2012 Cover Letter regarding sustained secondary charges, has led us to make the following rulings. When considering a charge set between the horns or a crescent or encompassed entirely within the crescent:

  • the crescent is the main charge, as it is typically the larger charge
  • if the other charge is entirely within the crescent, it is a maintained charge, and will be blazoned with the term within to emphasize its lesser importance. For example, within [and conjoined to] a crescent an X.
  • if the other charge is placed between the horns of the crescent but extends beyond the bounds of the crescent, it is either a co-primary charge or a secondary charge, depending on the relative sizes of the two charges, and will be blazoned with the term between the horns according to current practice for co-primary and secondary charges. If the charge is conjoined to the crescent and would be considered a secondary charge under this ruling, it is therefore considered a sustained secondary charge. For example, in pale an X between [and conjoined to] the horns of a crescent// is a co-primary group. For example, between [and conjoined to] the horns of a crescent an X or a crescent sustaining between its horns an X is a primary crescent and a secondary X.

Whether two charges are conjoined or not does not count for difference, only their relative sizes and position. When a primary crescent and a secondary charge are present in a design where they would be expected to be in a secondary or tertiary charge group, the crescent and charge will both be considered part of the same group.

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/04/12-04cl.html

Example

Registerability:

(Restricted, Reserved, SFPP, OOP)

Conflict:

Identifiability:

Collected Precedents:

The Ordinary:

  • add section link
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WARNING: Do not cite this page as a reference. This page is on this wiki to make the content "searchable" and easier to find. If you find the information you seek here, go to the original sources (generally linked) to verify the information and use them for your documentation.
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