Ravens and related birds

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WARNING: Do not cite this page as a reference. This page is on this wiki to make the content "searchable" and easier to find. If you find the information you seek here, go to the original sources to verify the information and use them for your documentation.  Contact the editor-in-chief, Sofya la Rus, if there are copyright concerns or other issues.  sofya at calontiri dot info

Includes ravens, crows, corbies, rooks, jackdaws, choughs, magpies...

Period postures include: close, rising, and "preying on children" - http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2003/11/03-11brd.html (Other standard bird postures are registerable.)

SCA default posture is close. http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html

Examples:

Period:

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An Ordinary of Siebmacher's Wappenbuch


Artifacts

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Information A Information B Information C

Modern:

Pictorial Dictionary, 3rd edition:

  • Crow, - "It is close by default... A few heraldic depictions, particularly on the Continent, show it with hairy feathers; most others draw it sleekly feathered; but all show the crow with a long, pointed bill. A “crow speaking” or “croaking” has its mouth open as if in speech... for emblazonry purposes, all these corvids are indistinguishable; the exact term was frequently chosen purely for the sake of a cant [raven, rook, (jack)daw, corbie]... There is also the “Cornish chough” (pronounced “chuff”), in form identical to the crow, and only distinguishable when “proper”: it is then black with red beak and feet... The chough may sometimes be blazoned a “beckit” for canting purposes [Parker 136]."

Vector Graphics:

Annotated Pennsic Traceable Art Project

Sources:

Academy of St. Gabriel "Medieval Heraldry Archive" - http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/
Archive of St. Gabriel reports - http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/archive.cgi
Laurel Armory Articles - http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/armory_articles.html
Period Armorials

Precedents:

Precedents of the SCA College of Arms - http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents.html
Morsulus Heralds Website - http://www.morsulus.org/ (to search the LoARs and Precedents)

Use the above links to be sure any precedents listed below haven't been superseded by newer precedents.

Definition:

May 2015 - magpie proper, feet and beak sable:

#172Muirenn Bán. Device. Argent, a magpie proper maintaining in its beak an oak leaf palewise vert, on a chief azure three crescents argent. Please let the submitter know that a magpie proper should have the beak and feet sable. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/05/15-05lar.html#172

May 2007 - magpie proper:

#207Marguerite de Saint Nazaire. Badge. (Fieldless) A magpie proper. "... A magpie can have varying amounts of white; some depictions of a magpie proper are primarily sable..." http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2007/05/07-05lar.html

October 2003 Cover Letter - Wreath: Generic Birds

In the last months we have often received commentary suggesting that some charge should be reblazoned from a specific sort of bird to a generic bird (e.g., reblazoning a hawk as a bird). We remind the College that we should only reblazon a specific sort of bird as a generic bird when the specific bird truly cannot be identified as such. We also remind the College that the reblazon to a generic bird has unfortunate side effects for conflict. As noted on the LoAR of April 1998, "Blazoned on the LoI as [a specific type of bird], as drawn it is not clearly any species of bird, so we have reblazoned it as a generic bird. Unfortunately, generic birds conflict with all birds, so this conflicts with ..." When one proposes to reblazon an imperfectly-drawn "hawk" as a generic "bird", it would lose an often-critical type CD from past or future submissions using swans, herons, chickens, peacocks, ostriches, hummingbirds, penguins, and so forth. Never forget that the suggestion to reblazon a specific bird as a generic bird is also a proposal to reward a poor artist with an unwontedly huge slice of armorial space. When we reflect on the quality of much period heraldic artwork, which is rarely precise in its depiction of birds or other animals, I think we can all agree that birds should only be reblazoned as "generic" birds when there is no other alternative. We have also continued to receive commentary indicating that ravens that are not drawn as "hairy" birds should be reblazoned as generic birds. This suggestion does not match period armorial style, which often depicts ravens as smooth-feathered birds. Please refer to the cover letter to the January 2002 LoAR, which discusses this matter in detail, including citations in commonly-available heraldry books showing specific examples of smooth-feathered/non-hairy corbies in period heraldic art. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2003/10/03-10cl.html

September 2002 - magpie as a black and white bird:

Líadan Arundel. Device. Argent, a chevron gules between three brown sparrows close proper.

  • It is only acceptable to blazon an animal as a brown animal proper when that animal is frequently found in a brown color in nature, as per the Cover Letter of October 1995, which states in pertinent part in part "... animals which are normally brown may be registered simply as an {X} proper (e.g., boar proper, hare proper). Animals which are frequently found as brown but also commonly appear in other tinctures in the natural world may be registered as a brown {X} proper (e.g., brown hound proper, brown horse proper)"...
  • There is evidence that birds that are black and white in nature are depicted as black and white birds when proper, even if their markings in the heraldic depictions are not quite correct for the species... Siebmacher also gives us the arms of von Atzelndorf (from Meissen) on f. 156 using a black and white bird. Atzel is the German word for magpie, and a magpie is a black and white bird, so it seems logical to conclude that the bird in these arms is meant to be a magpie. The Siebmacher rendition does not do a good job of duplicating a magpie's natural markings, but its proportions and general black and white coloration are correct for a magpie. A more accurately marked magpie proper may be found in the 15th C Milanese Stemmaria Trivulziano, p. 67, in the arms of de Bertis. The magpie there is black and white and the markings mostly follow the natural markings of a magpie. The editors inform us that the word berta means magpie (although it is not the most common Italian word for that bird) and de Bertis thus has canting arms...
  • http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/09/02-09lar.html

Registerability:

(Restricted, Reserved, SFPP, OOP)


Conflict:

August 2007 CL vs. January 2002 LoAR, falcon vs chough:

"There is no difference between the falcon and the Cornish chough." January 2002 LoAR BUT... ""Normally a detail as small as a beak would not be grounds for a CD; however, RfS X.4.e states in part "Types of charges considered to be separate in period, for example a lion and an heraldic tyger, will be considered different." As a merlin/falcon close and a raven close are both period heraldic charges, in their period posture (close), and as period heralds consistently distinguished, in their heraldic art, the birds in these positions, we will grant a CD between a merlin/falcon close and a raven close." August 2007 LoAR Cover Letter

May 2007 - magpie proper vs vulture or raven:

#207Marguerite de Saint Nazaire. Badge. (Fieldless) A magpie proper. This badge also conflicts with... In each case there is a CD for fieldlessness but no difference is granted between a magpie and a raven. Nor is there a CD for location of the ravens when compared to a fieldless badge. A magpie can have varying amounts of white; some depictions of a magpie proper are primarily sable. Given this, there is not a CD for tincture between a magpie proper and a magpie sable.

Concerning the device for Serlo of Litchfield, Gyronny gules and Or, a vulture close sable//, there is a CD for fieldlessness, but nothing for tincture of the bird. The question thus becomes whether or not a magpie conflicts with a vulture. There are prior precedents stating that a vulture conflicts with a hawk. There is no difference granted between a hawk and a raven, nor between a raven and a magpie. However, conflict is not necessarily transitive and a vulture may not conflict with a magpie. If this is resubmitted, we recommend that the submitter (and the East CoH) be prepared to show that a CD should be granted between a magpie and a vulture. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2007/05/07-05lar.html


November 2003 - Birds and Substantial Difference

This month we were called upon to make a number of rulings concerning difference between very different types of birds. After much thought, and discussion with Evan Wreath-designate, we have formulated the following policy. ... It is vanishingly rare to find birds other than eagles in the displayed// posture, while vast multitudes of eagles are found in the displayed posture. We thus re-affirm the January 2000 Cover Letter precedent (above). All birds (other than eagles) in the displayed posture are considered a "weirdness" and are not eligible for substantial difference - unless documentation is provided showing that the particular type of (non-eagle) bird is frequently found in the displayed posture in period. Here are a few generalizations concerning bird posture to be used in conjunction with criterion 2 above. In addition, see the attachment to this LoAR titled "Some birds and the postures in which they are found in period English heraldry."

  • Barring evidence to the contrary for a particular type of bird, it may be assumed that any type of bird is in a period posture when it is close.
  • If a bird is found in a rising posture in period, it is reasonable to assume that both rising wings addorsed and rising wings displayed are standard variants of that posture.
  • Period birds that are reguardant are considered a standard posture variant of period birds that are not reguardant. So, if a bird is found in the rising posture in period, it is reasonable to assume that rising reguardant is also a period posture. One //cannot// make the same assumption about guardant.
  • Turning any type of bird to sinister is considered a standard posture variant for all period heraldic postures, due to long-standing SCA practice. So, if a bird is found in the naiant posture in period, then for purposes of SCA heraldic rulings we will also consider the naiant to sinister posture to be period.

On examining the types of birds found in period armory, and how they were used, certain categories of bird type become apparent. These categories are:

  • ...
  • "Regular-shaped" birds, including martlets, ravens and other corbies, raptors (hawks, eagles, and owls), and doves: birds with the classic "bird shape". Compact light- or medium-weight birds with small necks and beaks, short to medium legs, plain tails.

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2003/11/03-11cl.html

January 2002 - Wreath: Ravens and Similar Birds

Three submissions this month (Muirenn Faulkner in Ansteorra, Lazarus von Kyrchberc in Caid, and Derbáil ingen Chonchobair in Meridies) raised questions about the correct depictions of ravens in armory, and how much difference ravens should be given from other birds. A raven is a crow is a rook is a daw is (almost) a Cornish chough It is important to remember that, for the medieval herald, no difference is made in depicting ravens, crows, rooks, or jackdaws. Cornish choughs are only distinguished in heraldic art from these birds by the chough's gules beak and feet. This information can be found in various heraldic treatises, including Parker, Glossary of Terms used in Heraldr, and Woodward, A Treatise on Heraldry, British and Foreign. Even the word corbie in English, from which derives the canting arms of Corbet, refers both to the raven and to the carrion crow, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The ensuing discussion will use the term "corbie" to refer to all these birds, for convenience. Must corbies be depicted with hairy feathers to be good period style? Just as one attribute of the boar is its bristles, one attribute of the corbie is its hairy feathers. A nice depiction of a "hairy" raven is in the Grünenberg Armorial, reproduced in fig. 474 of Fox-Davies, A Complete Guide to Heraldry//. It is important to realize that corbies are drawn with hairy feathers in period heraldic art just as often as boars are drawn with clearly visible bristles, which is to say, infrequently. It is therefore acceptable to draw a corbie with smooth feathers and blazon it as a raven, crow, or whatever sort of corbie it is meant to be, as long as it is identifiable as a corbie in the emblazon. It is not necessary to reblazon a smooth-feathered and identifiable corbie as a generic bird. In the Cover Letter to the January 2000 LoAR, Laurel ruled in pertinent part that "... in the future I will be stricter about requiring that a bird be drawn with its defining attributes (i.e., a dove should have a tuft). Without the defining attributes, the bird may just be blazoned as 'a bird.'" Since the majority of the period depictions of corbies are smooth-feathered, it is clear that the corbie's hairy feathers are merely an attribute of the corbie, not a defining attribute. It is unclear whether a corbie has a true defining attribute. Corbies in period heraldry are overwhelmingly both tinctured sable and postured close, but other birds share these attributes. The question of whether the corbie has a defining attribute for purposes of the January 2000 ruling must be left for further research. In England, smooth-feathered corbies are found in depictions of the canting arms of Corbet throughout our period. These arms all feature some number of corbies in sable on an Or field. These depictions range from the Herald's Roll c. 1280 (as seen in Bedingfield and Gwynn-Jones, Heraldry, p. 8), through the 15th C Fenwick Roll (Gwynn-Jones, The Art of Heraldry, p. 26) through the early 17th C Segar Roll (The Oxford Guide to Heraldry, plate 12). In addition to the canting corbies in the arms of Corbet, the Fenwick roll gives us the canting rooks in the arms of Rokesdon (Bedingfield and Gwynn-Jones, p. 61) and the canting crows in the arms of Crowmer (ibid., p. 109). They are drawn virtually identically. Outside of England, we also find many smooth-feathered corbies. Siebmacher, in his 1605 Wappenbuch, draws his corbies indistinctly from some of the other birds close, and without hairy feathers. Some of the corbies in Siebmacher hold a coin or ring in their mouths, as period heralds also recognized the corbie's acquisitive nature and love for shiny objects. However, most of Siebmacher's corbies are drawn in their default close posture without other accoutrements. Two of the numerous examples from Siebmacher are the canting arms of die Raeblinger (f. 129) from the Rhineland, Or, a raven sable maintaining in its beak a ring argent, and the canting arms of die Krhomair (f. 63) from Silesia, Or a crow sable atop a trimount vert. The author of Gelre (a late 14th/early 15th C armorial) depicts the Spanish arms of Don Loys Cornel, Or, five crows sable, but the only way to know these are meant to be crows (keeping in mind the French for crow, corneille), is to recognize the cant, or to read the blazon provided by the editors of this volume. The birds are drawn indistinguishably from martlets. In Italy, the arms of Alfonso Sadoleto da Modeno (who held office in the Bargello from 1521-1524) are found in bas relief in the courtyard of the Bargello, Bendy embattled ... on a chief ... a raven (Stemmi (nel museo nazionale del Bargello), p. 126). This bird is blazoned as a raven by the author of Stemmi and is a rather naturalistic raven or crow. It has the outlines of a smooth-feathered bird, although the bas relief shows some shaggy feathering as internal detail. How much difference should be given between corbies and other birds? As noted in reference to Gelre and Siebmacher's Wappenbuch, some period heraldic art draws corbies interchangeably from other sorts of birds which are in the same close posture. In these cases, only obvious cant, or well researched blazon, can help the viewer know what sort of bird was intended. Both the author of Gelre and Siebmacher draw their corbies indistinguishably from martlets, although other heraldic art may be found (such as the Fenwick roll) which is careful to distinguish between the footless martlet (drawn either with erased leg stumps, or couped leg stumps) and birds which have feet. It is interesting to note one coat in Gelre, the arms of Jan von Raligen (f. 75), Argent a cross and in canton a martlet sable, for a crest on a cap of maintenance argent turned up sable, a martlet sable between two wings argent. The martlet on the shield is drawn with the expected couped legs, but the martlet on the crest is shown with full legs and standard bird feet. So in Gelre, not only does it appear that other compact-outlined birds are drawn like martlets, but on some occasions, martlets are drawn more like other birds. The heraldic art in both Siebmacher and Gelre is generally of good quality, so these depictions are not a result of sloppy heraldic art. The specific question raised this month was that of the difference between corbies and falcons, when they are both in the close posture. It is easier to find artwork depicting corbies close in period heraldry than it is to find artwork depicting falcons close, as a larger proportion of the falcons in period armory are depicted in a rising posture, either with wings addorsed or displayed (see, for example, Elizabeth I's badge, Bedingfield and Gwynn-Jones, p. 118, or the arms of die Falcken on f. 189 in Siebmacher, Or a falcon rising wings displayed proper ... as a crest a falcon rising wings displayed between two bundles of sticks proper). When it comes to the question of the difference of a close falcon and a close corbie, it appears that a falcon close could be drawn in period so that it was not distinguishable from a corbie close. See for example v. Falckenstein, f. 193 of Siebmacher, Azure three falcons argent ... as a crest, a falcon rising wings displayed argent. In the Cover Letter of the January 2000 LoAR, Laurel ruled in pertinent part, "In the future I expect that I will be more likely to grant difference between different types of birds when (a) they are (a) different in period, (b) in a period posture, (c) drawn correctly, and (d) there is some visual difference (i.e., there is really no visual difference between a popinjay and a hawk).". It appears that, at least in the case of falcons close versus corbies close, there are cases where there is no visual difference, even though they are in a period posture and in well-drawn works of heraldic art. Therefore, falcons close are not entitled to difference from corbies close. Similarly, martlets close and corbies close should not be given difference. [But see August 2007 above.] http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/01/02-01cl.html


Identifiability:

Collected Precedents:

The 2nd Tenure of François la Flamme (October 2004 - May 2005) -

The Tenure of Shauna of Carrick Point (May 2004 - August 2004) -

The Tenure of François la Flamme (August 2001 - April 2004) -

The Tenure of Elsbeth Anne Roth (June 1999 - July 2001) -

The Tenure of Jaelle of Armida (June 1996 - June 1999) - Bird The 2nd Tenure of Da'ud ibn Auda (November 1993 - June 1996) -

The Tenure of Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme (June 1992 - October 1993) -

The 1st Tenure of Da'ud ibn Auda (June 1990 - June 1992) -

The Tenure of Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane (September 1986 - June 1990) -

The Tenure of Baldwin of Erebor (August 1984 - August 1986) - Single HTML Document The Tenure of Wilhelm von Schlüssel (August 1979 - August 1984) - BIRD The Tenure of Karina of the Far West (December 1975 - June 1979) - BIRD The Early Days (June 1971 - June 1975) - BEAKED, BIRD

The Ordinary:


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WARNING: Do not cite this page as a reference. This page is on this wiki to make the content "searchable" and easier to find. If you find the information you seek here, go to the original sources (generally linked) to verify the information and use them for your documentation. Contact the editor-in-chief, Sofya la Rus, if there are copyright concerns or other issues.  sofya at calontiri dot info
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